LDread

Date Posted: 12/17 6:57am Subject: Thoughts on melee vs ranged (insanely long)

I've read through many of the strategy posts on this board.
Though there is a number of posts on party composition, I
couldn't find any that really addressed the ranged combat vs
melee aspect. I think this is one of the most important aspects
of choosing a party, so I decided to write up a lengthy post
on the subject. I'll look at some of the traps and pitfalls of
the typical melee party, as well as some of the strengths of the
overlooked ranged party.

I've heard several people say that a party with three fighters
(and usually a Bard and 2 spellcasters) would be the best power
party. While this party is quite powerful, it should be pointed
out that it is the epitome of a melee party, something quite
obvious but often overlooked. In a similar fashion, I've heard
people complain about how their Rangers and Gadgeteers 'suck',
unable to inflict much damage while their fighters dominate. That
comment, while true, again applies only to using those characters
in a melee party, with a player who has a melee mentality. While
melee combat is able to inflict the most damage, it has its
drawbacks that I'd like to look at. Those ranged characters,
properly used, can be quite good. Whether they are actually as
powerful as a melee party is debatable, probably not, but the gap
isn't nearly as big as some would believe.

The way Wizardry 8 is set up, melee combat dominates the early
part of the game but as the game progresses, ranged combat
becomes more important. However, it is easy to miss this fact
because parties typically emphasize melee early and continue to
do so. Early in the game, most monsters are melee monsters and
happily rush up to greet your party. Typical strategy consists of
using 'walk', but only to delay your action while the monsters
charge you. You turn your party to get the most guys in melee
while moving your rear section out of combat (typically occupied
by a non-melee character), then cancel the move to fight. Great,
this strategy works very well against melee monsters. There is no
question that strong melee characters such as Rogues and Fighters
will inflict the most damage in the shortest time in a situation
like this. Since this is the most common situation early, a
melee-focused party is the strongest early game party.

But things change later in the game. More and more monsters are
happy to stand back and shoot at you or cast spells. Some of the
plant monsters on Arnika road in the early game will give you a
taste of this. If you are like me, you will feel frustration at
fighting these monsters with a melee party. You have to move,
either walk or run, which means most of the time that all the
monsters get to move before you. Then you move toward the
monsters. If they are far away, sometimes even a Run won't get
you all the way to them, especially when you lose your head of
steam in the middle of your run to the monsters interrupting to
get more shots at you. Usually you sacrifice your whole turn, as
the Wizardry 8 system penalizes your characters very heavily for
moving even a little (but not the monsters). If you didn't manage
to reach melee, now you've got to move again the next turn. That
gives the monsters another series of attacks before you get to
go. Of course, the monsters are spread out such that you can get
a few in melee, but once you've cut them down, you have to
reposition to get the next batch in melee, sacrificing more
turns.

Later in the game, it gets worse. The monsters cast spells. The
first order of business is usually to get Element Shield and Soul
Shield up to protect your characters against magic. However, this
means standing still for a turn. If you move, you'll get those
protections up last and maybe not at all if you move more than a
few steps. If you do choose to move, you'll often end up with
several paralyzed or webbed characters. So, either you sacrifice
an additional turn to ensure your protection, or you sacrifice
more turns later while you try to cure paralysis on several
characters. Alternately, you may find your spellcasters dead due
to damaging spells. With Magic Screen and Element Shield, you
reduce those attack spells to a non-threatening level, but with
just Magic Screen while waiting to get your chance to move,
enough monsters can do enough damage to kill your low-hp mages.
Against monsters who use mass-kill spells, you are basically
forced to waste an entire turn or face the possibility of most of
your characters dead before you even get to move.

The end result is that playing a melee party mid to late game is
frustrating. You are constantly letting the monsters get a bunch
of cheap shots on you while trying to get your frontline
characters in their face. Of course, once you do, those monsters
are quickly chopped into little pieces. Melee certainly makes for
a powerful party, but the drawbacks are often overlooked in posts
on party composition.

Before moving on to a look at ranged parties, here is a tip for
the melee party. Late game, you should have X-Ray up all the
time. Once you get used to the game, using the minimap and X-Ray,
you should be able to tell when moving around a corner will
trigger a fight; you get the hang of it after playing the game
for a while. Rather than moving around the corner, click the
combat button. Now, you can use your first surprise turn to run
and close the distance with the monsters. If the terrain is
favorable, you can often run to a closer area that is out of
sight of the monsters so that combat immediately ends with no one
to fight. Do this again to get even closer to the monsters before
the fight starts.

On to the ranged party. Early in the game, ranged combat is weak.
There are two reasons for this. First, you have weak ammunition.
Ammunition determines how much damage you do, and you'll be stuck
with basic arrows and bullet stones. Second, ranged combat at
first is inaccurate. If the monsters aren't in melee range or
darn close to it, you'll rarely hit. This emphasizes melee
dominance. A player is likely to see how much more powerful melee
is and tailor whatever party he has for melee. Once this choice
is made, it is usually final. Wizardry 8 rewards specialization,
and early on it seems to specialize in melee is the way to go.
However, if you are willing to accept a tougher early game,
building a ranged party has some real advantages later in the
game.

The first thing to realize is that you can't just give everyone
in your party some ranged weapon and call it a ranged party. You
must strive to engage at range whenever possible. And you must
pick characters that excel at range. My suggested party is one-
two melee characters and four-five range characers. You need a
melee character or two to protect your ranged characters against
melee monsters. Generally, if you have two sections covered (i.e.
the front line and one flank) each with a character that can hold
his own in melee, you can position your party in fights so that
they are holding all the melee monsters in their flanks, or
pretty close to it. Of course, those two characters will still
get a lot of practice with archery, so they will end up being
competent archers as well. I suggest you give a shield to the
character in the front rank, as it makes a big difference in how
often they get hit. Late in the game, a character with a good
shield will get lots and lots of 'HITS SHIELD' blocks. A fighter
in the front rank and a Valkyrie or Ninjas in the right flank is
an excellent way to go.

Now on to the ranged characters. As I said, the two melee
characters are going to be competent at range. But you want
people who excel at range. This involves not just character
choice but where you put your points. As I said before, at low
level ranged combat is wildly inaccurate. But if you max out
Senses and then pump the resulting Eagle Eye skill in addition to
constant practice, your ranged characters become deadly accurate.
Your ranged characters will be some mix of ranged weapon
characters and spellcasters (who are obviously effective at
range). In a melee party, I find I most often use my spellcasters
for buff spells; Haste, Superman, Guardian Angel, and lots of
Healing to support the melee characters. In a ranged party,
though, I find the spellcasters become more offensive. Sure,
you'll still do buff spells, but damaging spells work if you use
the right spell for the right monster.

The clear favorites for ranged weapon characters are Gadgeteers,
Rangers, and Ninjas. Be aware that Ninjas, because their special
abilities only apply to throwing weapons, can't shoot as far as
the other two. I like to build up the Ninja's magic to cast
spells when the enemy is too far away.

Here are a couple possible ranged parties I've toyed with:

1. Fighter (front), Ninja (right), Ranger (left), Gadgeteer (back),
Bishop+Alchemist (middle)
2. Samurai (front), Valkyrie (right), Ranger+Ranger (left),
Gadgeteer (back), Biship (middle)

For your ranged weapon characters, the number one priority is
maxxing Senses as soon as you can. 3 points per level, no
question. Second, make sure to get good ammunition. Every time
you visit a shopkeeper, buy all the ammunition they have beyond
the 'basics'. Gadgeteers especially are stuck using Bullet Stones
for a while, so they seem to suck until you reach Arnika. As your
characters get to about level 10-12, the ranged characters come
into their own. They'll begin to get multiple attacks, they'll
get Eagle Eye, and you'll have good ammunition for them to use.

There is no question that your ranged combat characters cannot
inflict the raw damage that melee characters can. Still, you have
to look at what you get in return. First, you don't lose any
turns. You are firing while the melee party is trying to close
with the enemy. Second, you inflict more status ailments. Ranged
weapon ammunition (and the weapons themselves especially for
Gadgeteers) have lots of different bad things they can do to
enemies. You'll be blinding, knocking unconscious, causing fear,
and inflicting instant kills. Not only do you have a better
chance with each shot to get such ailments, since you have more
turns you have more shots and thus even more of an advantage in
getting the ailments over a melee party.

There are other advantages. While you can't inflict as much
damage at range, that is also true for many monsters. This is
especially important for status ailments. You may lament that you
knocked a monster unconscious and no melee character is there to
do double damage. But think of the reverse. When the monsters are
throwing Web after Freeze Flesh at you, you will save against
most of them (with Magic Screen plus Element Shield) but some of
them get through. If one hits one of your characters in melee,
often the monsters will splatter him before you can do anything
to protect him. You have to wait out the turn then wait until
your spellcaster's turn comes up in the next round before he will
get that Cure Paralysis spell off. If you are at range instead,
no big deal.

A final advantage is that combats will last longer, at least in
terms of your 'active' rounds. If it takes X rounds to win a
fight, a ranged party will be using X rounds of actions. A melee
party will be using somewhat less due to moving around all the
time. This equates to more opportunites to get those coveted
skill increases after combat for the ranged party.

The final topic I want to address is mixxed parties. Wizardry 8
strongly encourages specialization, and I believe this is no
exception. I think trying to mix-and-match is a bad idea and
leads to many parties that aren't so good (and also to frustrated
players who don't understand why their party keeps getting
slaughtered). In my ranged party, a suggest a melee character or
two, but those characters should still at least be competent
archers. And they are a concession to necessity; many monsters
will get in melee with you so you have to have at least one or
two guys capable of holding them off. In a melee party, you don't
need ranged support at all so ranged characters should be limited
to spellcasters (no concession needed is a factor in why I think
melee parties are more powerful than ranged ones). Why do I think
not mixxing is good, you may wonder. After all, in many RPGs, a
wide variety of skills makes a party better while the focused
ones are too inflexible. I simply think Wizardry 8's design makes
just the opposite true.

Look at the way the game is set up. A ranged character does less
damage per attack, but makes up for it via all the status
ailments he can inflict and no need to move around. This gives as
many shots as possible to get the best chance for ailments and a
better chance on each shot for them. However, if you instead put
a ranged character in a melee party, he is not shooting while the
party is moving, trying to get into melee. Once melee is reached,
yes he can shoot, but he does much less damage now than does his
melee counterparts. While your fighters are berserking for 50+
damage per hit, the ranged characters are firing for 15-20 points
typically, even with good ammunition (and less damage if you have
poor ammo). Likewise, the reverse is true. A melee character in a
ranged party cannot use his powerful melee attacks while the
party is content to sit back and shoot.

IMO, it is better to pick your choice and stick with it. In a
melee party, your flanking characters should have extended-range
weapons and be good at using them so that they can melee as much
as possible. In a ranged party, your flank defenders will have
ranged weapons and only want to melee when the enemy forces them
to do so. Melee works best with everyone swinging in melee and
spellcasters using buff spells on them. Ranged works best with
everyone firing away, including spellcasters. Mixxed parties
inherit the drawbacks of each type rather than the strengths of
each.

So there you have it. There is a big difference in the game
between ranged and melee parties, which isn't often explicitly
examined. Now it has been. I do think that the '3 fighter' party
is probably the strongest party, and that overall melee parties
are superior to ranged parties. However, I don't think the
difference is nearly as pronounced as some make it out to be. If
you pick the right party and increase the right skills, ranged
parties can be a fun and effective change of pace from the
parties we usually see.

vn_Bochser

Just curious though LDread, when in the game do the majority of monsters use spells or ranged attacks? I'm not saying you're incorrect or anything, but I'm fairly well into the game and the majority of monsters still use melee attacks.

zeckensack

Bochser:
Just ran around in Trynton a little bit. Had two groups of those plant thingies (eight total), commenced combat and charged in. Next round nine poison seekers joined the carnage.
Two rounds later six Rapax guards came along
-> SHIFT+Q

Those darn plant things or seekers won't stop me but mixed with melee monsters they are a real pain in the ass.

Never ever will I switch below expert skill level.

reese_redenbacher

On second thought, maybe your flank melee or front melee could be Dracon, so you'll suffer less of the drawbacks of putting melee guys in ranged parties. Dracon are great for area damage, pairing up with Ninja who also excel from Thrown range.

Vhendrix

Bochser: Some of the encounters in the Rapax castle contain hordes of spell casters. They simply will not advance on you and are content to freeze/web/ fireball/crush you round after round. The Rynjin are also notorious spellcasters, and they can melee you from extended range, and they hurt. If I had to vote for the critter I hated the most, I'd vote for Rynjin.

LDread

I'm not sure if I should mention specific places, as it might be a spoiler and this is not the spoiler board. So here is a:

***SPOILER ALERT***

I'd say past Trynton, it starts to swing towards ranged attackers. The swamp is full of guys who like to spit at you or shoot their stingers. Many of the Rapax and Rynjin are spellcasters and the Rynjin who aren't like to fight from extended range, so you'll find yourself still having to move to engage them with your typical short-range frontline. Many of the late game wilderness monsters have ranged attacks as well: Flying snakes, fire- breathing scourchers, 3-headed gazers. Most of the toughest fights even in the midgame are against spellcasters such as the ultra-tough temple fight, the pack of pirate ghosts in the Bayjin Shallows, and the Keeper of the Crypt and his undead in the Sea Caves

Mostly, though, the main enemies for much of the late game are Rapax, and they are mostly ranged opponents. At first it start about an even mix between Veterans/Berserkers (melee) and Archers/Mages (range), but soon you are fighting many many templars, and all they do is sit back and blast you with spells.

In addition, several monster types start as melee and become ranged when you are higher level. For instance, instead of the melee wasp types, you face Blooddrinkers. Instead of Thrasher Apax, you get the deadly Deathstrike Apax.

Don't get me wrong, there are still a number of melee guys. But more and more, if you pay attention, with a melee party you'll find yourself spending more time moving and getting shot at then you do swinging at the enemy.

zeckensack

Hmmm, but on second thought these pesky little fighters (pure fighter that is) do get something in exchange for that drawback
-> lots of HP

I don't use fighters and I probably won't but with the insane HP bonus combined with faster leveling they seem to make up for this running-around- and-getting-blasted.