In wiz 7, the Samurai, lord, monk and ninja, and ranger was much much better than a purre fighter but they took a long time to build up.

My question is: is this the case with wiz 8 or is a high level fighter just as effective as a high level monk, samurai, lord and ninja. This is because I really do not understand why I am playing the more difficult classes and leveling up slower if ultimately, they are hardly more effective than fighters.

I can see that a bishop is worth the effort to develop because when it gets to high level, the sheer spell repitore they have will beat a pure class magic user any day. But I am not so sure about fighters after having read about how powerful pure fighters are.

Think they gave too much to pure fighters by allowing bersrk to do bouble damage plus give fighters more hps.

Wooly19

Pure Fighters are much better fighters than the hybrids. However, Ninjas can pick locks and cast spells. Samarai can cast spells. In my last game both my Samarai and my Ninja were able to cast portal spells. They could web and freeze flesh. Both could get instant kills. While not as tough as my fighter, and not dealing as much damage, they were both fun classes to play.

Do you want the most powerful party possible, or do you just want to have a good time? Even the wimpiest loser classes are good enough to finish the game.

gd22

Pure fighters have the advantage of berserk attack, and possibility to knock out an opponent but they soon are outdone by hybrids even in the combgat aspect alone.
Valkyries, Monks and Ninjas, even the Lord(with proper training) not only rival a fighter in close combat but can far exceed or be onpar with the fighter in close combat alone. Take their spellcasting abilities into account and its very easy to see which chars are more useful.

Fighters have no redeeming aspect in comparison to hybrid fighters by midgame. They cant cast spells, and their berserk ability and possible knowckouts, along with higher hit pts, doesnt nearly make up for what they lack in comparison to hybrids. Samurais, Ninjas and monks can soon outdo the pure fighter in combat alone!

Valks are awesome warriors and are on par(equal) with any pure fighter in close combat ability, and same for lords if you train them properly. And this is combat alone we're talking about, forget the fact that hybrids learn spells.

The advantage the fighter has is really made apparent only for the beginning game, by the midgame hybrid chars either exceed or get to be at least on par with the fighter's close combat abilities, and also start learning how to cast spells, so which do you think is more useful!?? If they get to be either better or equal to the fighter in close combat, and can cast spells as well, then there really is no question is there?

A samurai at his best, in combat alone, outdoes the fighter. Same goes for a ninja and monk. Even a ranger and gadgeteer are more useful than a fighter when it comes down to it. Rangers learn to fight close combat rather effectively(not as good as a fighter but close) but its their ranged lethality that makes them great, along with their alchemy spells(and their scouting which is invaluable). Gadgeteers, while they cant hope to excel in close combat as well as a ranger, make the overall best ranged fighter in the game IMHO. Gadgeteers do crazy ranged damage at their best, and get many more shots a turn than other chars, and like the bard's instruments, the gadgeteer's gadgets enable them to produce some spells and spell like effects, though their main asset is definitely their omnigun fo damage.

Fighters are great, but their usefulness quickly fades by midgame in comparison with hybrid, or "elite" chars. Even lords can eventually be the fighter's equal in combat if they train for the right kind of secondary weapon(which would ideally be mace as a 2nd weapon, eventually using diamond eyes) or even simply avoid using a secondary weap and go for a shield or 2H instead.

MaskedFrog

Pure fighters will deal more damage than hybrid fighters due to their beserk ability. This means you can count on them for their damage. If you are willing to live with less damage but the potential of instant kills the samurai, monk, and ninja are better. In the end it really depends on how you like to play the game. Want dependable damage go with the fighter. Want potential for instant kills go with a samurai, monk, or ninja. Want polearms go with valkyrie. Do not see need for Lord unless you like dual wielding.

jgaltx

Fighters are more effective than hybrids at fighting. Their berserk ability allows them to hit more often and do more damage per hit. That simply cannot be matched by any hybrid fighter. And don't let people try to sell you on the idea that the critical ability of hybrids matters, it doesn't. What matters is having a weapon that does 10%-15% criticals. The critical skill rarely hits and requires the investment of points. The critical ability of weapons hits much more often and requires a zero investment of points. Furthermore, when criticals don't occur the fighter will hit for more total damage per round (weapons being equal) than any other class. The only characters I'd put in the league with a fighter for damage and death dealing would be a Faerie Ninja with the Cane of Corpus or a Samurai with Murumasa or maybe even a monk with the Staff of Doom. However, a fighter with Fang and a stiletto is hard to beat. He'll hit 6-8 times a round for great damage and each weapon has a 10% chance to cause a critical which is a much better chance to cause a critical than someone with a critical skill of 100% using martial arts.

And finally, because fighters level up so quick and have very high hitpoints and they also don't need to waste points on stats other than those essential to fighting (STR/ DEX/SPD/SEN/VIT). Therefore, they can get as many as 4 of the expert skills. Most hybrids stats are too spread out and they are 2-3 levels behind the fighter late in the game. Hybrids are lucky to get 3 stats to 100 to get expert skills, most of my hybrids only got 2 stats to 100 by the end of the game. Also fighters have the best armor in the game bar none. It's not even close. The items my fighter can wear enhance resistance to spells, have very high AC, and many enhance stats.

Are fighters the best or most powerful fighting class? That depends on your play style and if you value the extra abilities they get like spell casting. I think that both classes are fun to play.

I had the following in my party and found them all to be very effective fighters and the ninja and samurai also decent secondary spell casters (neither had anywhere near as many hitpoints as the fighter, and the fighter had more kills than either, but not by much).

Fighter with Fang and stiletto
Faerie Ninja with Cane of Corpus (and a wand)
Samurai with Berserker Sword (Murumasa late in the game) and an enchanted Wakazashi

Your mileage may vary, play want you want. Like someone else said the game is beatable by almost any party - especially if you set the difficulty to easy, but the goal is to have fun, so pick a party that matches your play style and party concept.

ariana5

Great message.

Those who say that pure fighters are useless compared e.g. to valks and lords are missing some basic points. Once you web or freeze or otherwise incapacitate enemies someone needs to actually kill them, and unless you get a critical doing a lot of damage does so faster than doing less damage. And the fighter with a 15% instant kill weapon is like a monk with more clout. Also, what if some lucky and difficult enemy resists your spells for a few rounds?

Hybrid classes may or may not be better because of their special abilities but I can't agree that for pure melee fighting they are as good as a fighter - they aren't.

rlowther

Yes, they definitely beefed up the normal classes like fighter, rogue, and bard.

I think it's a toss up. If one class was clearly better than the others, then there wouldn't be any discussion here. It's really up to your individual preference.

vn_Inxx

all melee classes are good
lord,samurai,ninja,valki need more exp than pure fighter cause of their special skills

i play with pure fighter(lizzi),samurai
and ninja - all in melee range and it works great for me
the samurai is a real killer with the berserker sword(forgot name) and his lightning strikes/criticals
my ninja is the weakest atm,i just build him up with the skills for the cane later :o)
fighter has most hps and best AC and 1 lvl more than my ninja/samurai

too bad i dont have a valki
just found the ravenous bill(spell?)
awesome pole-weapon,but sold it for good cash

ariana5

As I recall Raven's Bill is cursed - the only really good weapon for a valk is Maened's Lance. You can always recruit Vi if you haven't killed her (g).

Ninjas may get better at higher levels, but I agree. When I lost my samurai to Marten's Idol it was depressing - I'm not playing iron "man" this game, for once, and went to a prior save and was delighted to lose my faerie ninja.

Of course that will change very soon - I have a visit with the Don on my way back from the swamp. The ninja will then kick butt! (saw the Don at level 9 and was too weak to kill him, although strong enough to keep him from killing me. At level 12 I would be willing to face him even in iron man mode.)

vn_Inxx

yep the bill is cursed and gives u -1 hp regeneration
but i found the weap early in the game,
around lvl 10, and the damage was awesome

bout my faerie ninja
got the cane now(at lvl 12)
now he is 16 with 100 in critical
he poisons(15damage each time),stuns(using nunchakas in 2nd hand) and instant kills the mobs like crazy
just make sure your speed is high enough too

IlleglWpns

jgaltx :

I have to disagree with you. The critical strike skill is NOT worthless when comapared to innate weapon critical chance.

How do I know?

My samurai with Fang (10% kill) doesn't get that many more criticals than with his secondary weapon (enchanted wakizashi 2% kill) If the skill didn't matter he should be seeing around 4 or 5x as many crits with Fang, but after taking into account the fact that he hits a lot less with the wakizashi (monsters are usually dead by then) I'd say he only gets 50% more, if that.

My ninja doesn't see a huge difference between the boomerang shuriken (%1 kill) vs. throwing stilletos (8% kill).

And when I gave Fang to my fighter he didn't get nearly as many instant kills as my samurai (in fact I don't remember him getting any).

Fighter vs. Hybrid effectiveness debate:

Hmm now this is interesting.

My samurai with fang/enchanted wakizashi currently has something like 70 more kills than my Fighter with the ivory blade, and the gap shows no sign of closing. The fighter outdamages the Samurai by a huge amount (almost 3x), yet the Samurai is ahead in kills.

I think the fighter is far less equipment dependent than the hybrid classes (except for monk and martial arts ninjas), and will shine in the early game, because he can berserk with any weapon.

The fighter is also a tank without peer with the ability to use the best armor in the game and the most Hps. A sword/shield fighter will be very difficult to hit and can take a beating.

Later in the game the samurai pulls even in offensive ability as he gets some decent weaponry (Fang would count). Criticals and lightning strike go a long way towards evening things out. A properly built samurai will also attack first and more times than a fighter.

It's very difficult to say how all these factor interact, but at least in my case the evidence is clear. The samurai more than pulls his weight in terms of # of kills.

Majica

A fighter for 5 or 6 levels, emphasizing swords, dual wield, and speed- switched over to a Samurai is AMAZING! Three hits per turn, two turns per round, with a decent sword- watch out even at low levels .

Adrastus

I agree with the pro-Fighter people. A Fighter using Berserk will outdamage any similarly levelled/similarly class of gear equipped hybrid, have a better AC, and have more HP.

Hybrids typically have 60%-70% the HP, take too long to develop (I think hybrid levelling is paced so most people would finish the game before getting a hybrid to the point it's comparable to a Fighter).

Critical strikes don't happen frequently enough to make them worth it, and like another poster said certain Fighter weapons will make the Fighter actually crit as or more often than a Samurai or Ninja.

If I were to bet on my Fighter with the Lightsword/Stilletto, Platinum Greaves, +3 Plate Mail (U) etc. or my Samurai with Tosei Do (why no Hi-Kane Do anywhere??!!), Muramasa, Lightshield (to make up for deficient AC), to get me through a tough encounter I'd definitely bet on the Fighter dealing out 100+ damage regularly and not being flat on his face in the dirt after it's all over. And I have developed my Samurai properly to maximize criticals.

My Ninja is a pure throwing Ninja with the Boomerang Shuriken, and is lucky to get 1-2 kills an hour (also maximized according to Altus7, senses and critical are maxxed). I wish I'd chosen another Bishop there, or maybe a Rogue.

If you want to just play the game through to completion, see what it has to offer, finish it with a minimum of frustration, go with three Fighters up front, and whatever else.

If you want to explore all the items in the game (better read up on how to generate them), play with classes, etc. at the expense of being the most efficeint that you can be, choose hybrids (which I did).

I can almost guarantee you though that if you have comparable gear (not a Fearie Ninja with Cane of Corpus versus a Fighter with Demonsbane of something similarly crappy) and took equal care in development with each class that a Figher will have far more kills than a hybrid at the end of the game.

IlleglWpns

"I can almost guarantee you though that if you have comparable gear (not a Fearie Ninja with Cane of Corpus versus a Fighter with Demonsbane of something similarly crappy) and took equal care in development with each class that a Figher will have far more kills than a hybrid at the end of the game. "

Then explain my results...if anything my fighter has BETTER gear than my samurai and is trailing in kills.

Adrastus

What weapons is your Fighter using? And is he using Berserk in combat?

jgaltx

I have no doubt a Samurai can post as many kills as a fighter if properly developed and equiped. I stated in my message that I have a Samarai who lags only slightly behind my fighter in kills, and I am a big fan of the Samurai. Having said that, the fighter can kill two ways, damage and criticals, the Samurai does less than half the damage of my fighter and does most of his kills as "cleanup" kills or criticals. A samurai is much less effective when forced to kill with damage vs. criticals. Also my fighter has significantly more hitpoints, much better AC, and better resistance (due to the fighter having far superior armor and items - the samurai armor available sucks compared to what a fighter can wear the only half decent samurai stuff comes near the very end of the game).

On the other hand, the Samurai has a magic skill around 50 and can cast utility spells and damage spells as needed and can use the boomerang shuriken (not having to worry about ammo is fabulous!). I never made the argument that a fighter is a better total character than a samurai (or other hybrid), I said that a fighter is better at fighting. Remember, fighting is not judged by kills alone. Let's look at the attributes of a fighter:

1. Dealing Death
(toss up between fighter/sam.)
2. Dealing Damage
(figher hands down)
3. Absorbing Damage
(fighter hands down - lots of hitpoints)
4. Avoiding Damage
(fighter hands down - fighter has much better armor and equipment giving him higher AC and higher magic resistance)

If you throw in the spell casting of the samurai and the occassional lightning strike, you could make the case the samurai is a better overall character, but I don't think you could make the case he's a better fighter using the criteria above that most people associate with being an effective "fighter".

However, as I said in my original post what's most important is that you play what's fun. I've thoroughly enjoyed every member of my party (listed below) for different reasons.

1. Fighter - Light Sword & stiletto, Strong Bow, great armor and misc. items

2. Samurai - Murumasa & ench. wak., Boomerang Shuriken, utility magic

3. (Faerie) Ninja - Cane of Corpus & Rod of Sprites, utility magic

4. Ranger - Eagle Eye and Triple Shot Crossbow, Spear of Death, Scouting, highest utility magic 60+ (has set/return portal!)

5. Bard - Musical Items, Staff of Doom

6. Gadgeteer - Gadgets, Omnigun, Fang

7. Bishop - 100% Magic all the time and lots of Magic Restoration Potions. The best spell caster in the game IMO.

8. Empty

There's not a single one of the characters listed above I would substitute for something else. My party allows me to use most of the items, and play many different types of characters. I think it's a very interesting and still highly effective party, but you could win with many other combinations, this is just the one that works for me.

vn_Inxx

dunno what problems some players have with their criticals
i play with a fighter,samurai,ninja(faerie)
and they all got lots of criticals(ninja most) even the fighter with his bow
and i dont speak about lvl 10 mobs
i mean the stuff in ascention p.
my party was around lvl 22-24 and nothing could beat me
only things i dont like are toxic cloud and quicksand

i finished the game now and my samurai was the weakest of them

best was faerie ninja with cane
his criticals,stuns are awesome
(nunchaka in 2nd hand,screw the sai)
cane is the best weapon in game (for me)

second best the pure fighter
highest ac,most hps,good damage,sometimes stun(ivory blade and templar dagger)

last,the samurai (fang+ench.wakizashi)
without buffs(superman,etc.) his damage was weak
the lightning effect is kinda rare
spells useless,never used em

i never found all the uber weapons , like light sword,muramasa blade,etc
if u are over lvl 20 u dont need em anyways
they are just nice to have

next time i would replace the samurai with another pure fighter or valkyrie(very good ext.range weapons,better armor)

just my 2 dead trynnies

IlleglWpns

Adrastus:

Fighter is using Ebony Blade/Shield of Rainbows. He always berserks.

Samurai is using Fang/Enchanted Wakizashi.

JgTalx:

You know, I think we're agreeing violently. Going to your points:

1) Agree, with the possible caveat that the samurai will become clearly better at higher levels due to continually increasing frequency of lightning strike (and maybe crit strikes).

2) Agree. However I think in most cases dealing death is more important than dealing damage.

Fighters are better against single high level "bosses", no question about it.

But against multiple "mundane" foes I think 1) is more important than 2).

3) and 4) I agree as well. It sucks that the best armor you can get for the samurai is the Hi-Kane-Do. Heck I didn't my one piece in a chest, I had to kill a Rapax priestess to get one.....

In fact the only real disagreement I have with you is the relative frequency of weapon crits vs. skill crits.

PS: Where did you find the muramasa? (Please don't say queen's bedroom chest, got nothing but crap from that one).

jgaltx

Illegal:

Let's just agree to agree!

I got Murumasa in one of the later chests, but I don't remember which one. It's a nice weapon, although there are other swords that are almost as good (although the 15% critical is nice and really helps).

I've been thinking about replaying, but can't think of any class I didn't play that I'd want to play because then I'd have to give up one of the ones I have and I was really happy with my party. I guess if I had to pick new classes to try I'd probably go with either a Valkyrie, Rogue, or Psionicist and maybe even a Priest. The Mage doesn't really interest me (offensive magic was not that impressive and quite frankly the Bard and Gadgeteer are better at it than the mages because they cast at level 5-7 and use stamina which recovers right away making it essentially "free" spellcasting). I think utility, buff, and spells that cause conditions (paralyze, nausea, blind, insanity, etc.) are the only good spells. The damage spells pale in comparison to the damage a fighter type can do.

I think I'll start a new thread on this....

IlleglWpns

Out of curiosity, how do you know what power level level your bard and gadgeteer are "casting" at?

Most of the descriptions of gadgets specify a power level of 1, and the bard instruments don't say anything.

I thought the tradeoff of having infinite effects with the bard/gadgeteer was that you generally cast at a lower power level than a comparable pure caster class, and that expert skills like power cast won't help.

My favorite pure caster class is psionicist...as much destructive power as the mage (prismic chaos beats nuclear blast hands down IMO) and much better buffs.

jgaltx

When you "cast" a spell via gadget or instrument it will tell you the level.

For example, when I cast Insanity with my bard instrument it will tell you the level i parenthesis, e.g. "Bard cast Insanity(7)" and then list the effects below.

The level which you cast at is dependant on the level of the bard/gadgeteer and the level of the music/engineering skill. The higher your character level and the higher your required skill, the higher level you will cast the spell. I cast most spells from instruments and gadgets at level 5-7. There is no tradeoff at all for using instruments/gadgets vs. real spells which is why I think the bard and gadgeteer are the best spell casters in the game.